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楼主: windstormm
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自从从NL25升上NL50 on 5/18/2010

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11#
skizzik 发表于 2010-6-9 23:24:07 | 只看该作者
很多建议是AF保持在3比较好

对于需要主动bet或者rasie的牌型我还比较了解,但是我想交流一下都有哪些牌值得只是call

比如一些偏大的顶对,J以上。超对。还有一些一般的draw(super draw我肯定rasie,他3bet我go all-in)。但是这些牌遇到对手donk bet的机会还是不多

而我翻牌前call得不多,一般可以float的机会都不多

AF一直超过4,怎么都降不下来
12#
 楼主| windstormm 发表于 2010-6-9 23:27:24 | 只看该作者
我是打9人full ring 的..一般可以比 6max 更紧点.
13#
 楼主| windstormm 发表于 2010-6-10 00:12:09 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 windstormm 于 2010-6-10 00:16 编辑
很多建议是AF保持在3比较好

对于需要主动bet或者rasie的牌型我还比较了解,但是我想交流一下都有哪些牌值 ...
skizzik 发表于 2010-6-9 23:24



我在NL25的AF 是2.7.. NL50 是3.4 so far.  原因是NL50的人fold 的凭率明显高.. second level thinker, 他们已经开始考虑对手的牌了. use it to your advantage, be consistent with what hand you are trying to represent, 所以我增加了我的aggression 特撇是in position.

其实我觉得很多牌flop 都不要raise.   call 的效果更好.. 你一raise, 很多worse hand的都fold 乐, 他一3 bet,你如果放不下,一定被清了... TPTK or 2 pair 都不recommend raise unless you have specific read.  You can also call some sets in position, sometimes you get more value out of it by mixing it up.

几种情况我大都会raise flop
1) value raise with sets if you put your opponents on a relatively strong hand ( top pair or over pair ) or a draw or if your opponents is a calling station.
2) you have total air and you feel your opponents's flop bet is very weak on a draw possible board(like flush draw), and you want to bluff at it. Reason is here, there is a clear draw on board, so your call looks relatively weak and you do only have air. if your hand is air and your play is weak, it is a bad combination. You can't win by show down and you can't win by bluff either in later street.  so you should fold or take a stab at the pot right there. This play can back fire because some people might just put you on a draw and will stack off with a marginal hand. Then you have to fold.
3) You have total air and you sense your opponents are cbetting with total air and you want to bluff at it right there.

Combine these in a perfect proportion so that they are not sure whether you are bluffing or value raising, like 2:1 value raise to bluff ratio.
2) 最好不要float   3) 你也可以float. 特别是你bb vs sb 的时候.. 如果你trust your read, 你在turn either bet when he check to you or you raise him on turn and bets river if he calls raise on turn and check to your river.
when you pull this kind of bluffs, you should really have a relatively tight image, or it would not work as well.

when you try a bluff, pay attention to your opponent's range as well as what he puts you on.
if a tight but aggressive guy opens at MP and you call at button with 10 Js .
flop 785 rainbow. he bets 2/3 pot,  you call.  (you could raise, but i like call better, it put 2 pair, set, draws all type of hand in your range if you have called with those hand before)
turn is a 6, he bets 2/3 pot again. you should fold or raise turn here. because the board is very favorite to your range but not to his after you flat preflop and call flop. You can  have varity of hand that have him beat (2 pair, set and straight). He could have a totally air with AK or he can have an over pair still would be difficult to call you down) if he calls your raise and check to your river and you didn't make your draw, then you have to fire 3rd barrel 2/3 pot at least try to take a stab at the pot.

This type of play should be mixed with  some of your monster hand. preferable 2:1 ratio to be effective. and you should have a relatively tight image on the table.  

The general rule of betting is: you should bluff more when you look strong, you should value bet more when you look weak.
When you play weak on a weak hand, don't try to bluff in later street, it is very difficult for it to work.  When you bet on draw on flop, fire second barrel when you missed your draw on turn or just check fold.  Check call turn with draw then try to check raise river for bluff does not work often enough and it is too expensive.  There is no such thing as check call river for bluff like the recent discussion even in most of the live game..  Don't try it. it is stupid even if it wins you some "wo.. ah" when you pull it off.
14#
skizzik 发表于 2010-6-10 00:53:53 | 只看该作者
2) you have total air and you feel your opponents's flop bet is very weak on a draw possible board(like flush draw), and you want to bluff at it. Reason is here, there is a clear draw on board, so your call looks relatively weak and you do only have air. if your hand is air and your play is weak, it is a bad combination. You can't win by show down and you can't win by bluff either in later street.  so you should fold or take a stab at the pot right there. This play can back fire because some people might just put you on a draw and will stack off with a marginal hand. Then you have to fold.


是的,这类情况我也比较郁闷,首先对手的下注其实很诡异,他牌要是好,以我这么高的c-bet,他C/R我好不好

但是他bet了

而我考虑的是,我如果rasie,有些人喜欢用draw来bet/3bet,我玩不下去。

万一他call了,我把他放在什么位置,成牌或者是听牌,turn我还要不要bet。但是bet turn看上去他成牌或者听牌都还可能会call,rvier我们站得住脚的line是什么?

很多时候我直接放弃那样的flop,觉得有点不甘,但是往往最后都还是弃掉
15#
skizzik 发表于 2010-6-10 00:55:45 | 只看该作者
我是打9人full ring 的..一般可以比 6max 更紧点.
windstormm 发表于 2010-6-9 23:27



   
我这两天也打了1万手FR,25NL,回头有空交流一下

今天有点晚了,我先睡了
16#
 楼主| windstormm 发表于 2010-6-10 01:31:30 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 windstormm 于 2010-6-10 01:35 编辑

回复 14# skizzik


是很难办, 建议你raise at least with some outs.  like AK high.  
example,
AsKh you raise on CO, bb calls.
after flop Jc6c2h,
bb donk bet 1/3 pot.  you raise to pot.  BB can donk with variaty of hands. he could have a weak J, middle pair(10s 9s 8s) or flush draws or a set/2 pair. With the fold equity, you are not behind much except set/2 pair. raise here is good because if he has a set he will let you know when he reraise you big (fish likes to small bets and reraise when raised as induce with set or 2 pair, it is an easy read and fold. rarely they do this with pure flush draw. If they do, just fold to them, it is not often enough for you try to catch their bluffs, you should probably follow the same line if you have over pair. ) with 2 pair and sets taken care in their range, you are not behind much on other hands and you have fold equity and position. raise it flop. If he calls, and flush card comes, be very careful (fish likes to bet small call raise with flush draw but check turn when he makes it). i would check behind often but fire on river if he checks to you again and you have high card (you represent a well played top pair or over pair). if there is no flush card and you didn't hit your pair, fire away 2 or 3rd barrel because his hand should not be able to stand 2 or 3rd barrel most of the time.

Most of the time, i suggest to fold your hand if you are unsure.  Knowing when to lay down a hand is just as important as value betting at microstake. There is no shame in it.
17#
nipbb 发表于 2010-6-10 02:18:56 | 只看该作者
顶啊 新人帝啊 呵呵
请问rush poker和普通桌哪些方面区别比较大啊?除了速度
18#
 楼主| windstormm 发表于 2010-6-10 02:56:22 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 windstormm 于 2010-6-10 02:57 编辑

回复 17# nipbb

rush poker 以前我cash 打得不多(除了去年我刚开始打holdem的时候,totally clueless), 主要打STT SNGs. 所以普通table我不是很了解。。 不过现在rush 也有HUD, 我觉得应该没太大区别。。
19#
skizzik 发表于 2010-6-10 08:22:49 | 只看该作者
回复  skizzik


是很难办, 建议你raise at least with some outs.  like AK high.  
example,
AsKh you  ...
windstormm 发表于 2010-6-10 01:31



    呵呵 看来这个帖子是我最近两个月参与讨论的最有意义的帖子

这样的松弱玩家的weak lead对我来说的确曾经是一个很大的问题,食之无味弃之可惜。后来我也开始选择时机去用air来rasie他们,不过如果他们跟了很多时候我就放弃。当然强draw我会选择2 barrel,甚至3 barrel

昨天打FR感觉比SH舒服很多,让我难受的决策更少。输了几手冤家牌,比如两次topset输draw,KK输AA,AK 3bet出AKX输KK,第二大顺输nuts顺,次大花输nuts花,还有两个super draw推了没draw到。然后打了1万手大约赢了接近220块。鉴于是同时打21桌,还算蛮不错的。
20#
nmgsy 发表于 2010-6-10 08:30:26 | 只看该作者
英语好好费劲 能不能学习老邱  他老人家能说汉语都说汉语呢 也好造福我等不懂英语的啊

我相信论坛上至少50%的人,看英语不太习惯。
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