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标题: Should I fold or call? [打印本页]

作者: pan300at 时间: 2009-8-15 05:03
标题: Should I fold or call?
Online tournament at AbsolutePoker/UltimateBet

I am a well known player over there (I won both Yearly Tournament Leardeboard on 2008, Two sites merged at end of 2008).
I have no ideal how he plays.

I raised 3.5x from middle position with AQ, only my left called me.

Flop  KKQ:  I bet 60%, he call;
Turn  5:    I bet 60%, he re-raise double, I call;
River  K: I check, he bet the pot ($600)

I had about $5000 chips

I typed: K?
He typed: Yes

Should I fold or call?

作者: windstormm 时间: 2009-8-15 09:17
标题: Should I fold or call?
it would be an easier fold for you if you check and raised after turn even though the pot size is the same.
or check and call on turn hoping for a smaller pot for show down. betting again after turn on that board with AQ is probably not a good move. you are building the pot up while it is possible that you are drawing dead.
but overall it is only 1/10 of your total stack. He could just have pocket 10s and betting you don't have a Q or K. Call to see his card is also a good investment: 1) you get to understand how he plays his hand 2) make an image of calling station, so he won't bluff you as much down the road.. [s:167]

作者: pan300at 时间: 2009-8-15 19:04
标题: Should I fold or call?
Hi windstormm,

Thanks for your input. My thinking process is as below:

He re-raise double: I put him on K>Q (blocking my river bet)>AA (testing I had K or Q)>others.
Another K at River: I put him on Q, after all, the chance he had last K is small.
He bet pot: I put him back on K instantly (I knew he think I will not believe he had the last K, therefore he bet large and want to make the most. I had similar situation before. Board AA999, I had 9, I am sure opponent had A. I bet HUGE all-in at River when I first to act, opponent can not letdown his A. This is calling "Experience").

I fold. He showed K.

You said:
"check and call on turn hoping for a smaller pot for show down. betting again after turn on that board with AQ is probably not a good move. you are building the pot up while it is possible that you are drawing dead."

I don't agree with this. It will be a little passive.
First, there is nothing indicating he had the K at Flop (It is easy to say once you know he re-raised at Turn). He could think you missed flop; this is just a continuation bet. He could call the flop with many other hands.
Second, you forgot the other side. You don't want give the free card to him. He could catch straight if he had AJ, AT, JT, J9, T9; He could catch full house with any pairs; He could chop with you if the Ace coming at River and he had Ax, Q coming and he had Qx.
Finally, even you got re-raise, and then you got the important information that he probably had K, and it helped me fold at River in this case.

If I am not bet on the Turn, he will bet at least half the pot, I will call. He will bet pot at River, I have to call (How can you sure he had K, not the Q or even bluff without he re-raise at Turn information?). So I will lose much more chips if I didn't bet at Turn.

You said:
"but overall it is only 1/10 of your total stack. He could just have pocket 10s and betting you don't have a Q or K. Call to see his card is also a good investment: 1) you get to understand how he plays his hand 2) make an image of calling station, so he won't bluff you as much down the road.. "

I will not call to see his card if I am quite sure I am behind. I will cut loss. Every chip is my soldier, and I love my every soldier.

By far, I am the best known player (won most yearly, monthly, weekly tournament leaderboard and profits) over there, no one except fishes (then depend how many fishes over there, ha-ha) will believe I am a calling station.

作者: windstormm 时间: 2009-8-15 23:47
标题: Should I fold or call?
if you reread my post. my first option is check and raise turn, check and call is only a secondary alternative.
but again, you are the best player out there, probably knows much more than I. [s:167]

作者: toonepiece 时间: 2010-5-28 18:08

I will not call to see his card if I am quite sure I am behind. I will cut loss. Every chip is my soldier, and I love my every soldier.
He re-raise double: I put h ...
pan300at 发表于 2009-8-15 19:04

know what makes u a winning player now.thx for your wonderful posts

作者: checkhold 时间: 2010-5-30 06:06
Nice post.Thanks for share your handhistory.
I learn more here.

作者: xiaodd 时间: 2010-6-1 13:12
very good player

作者: youngtercel 时间: 2010-6-2 04:55
He played well, and you too.
by cold call on flop you got no information for his hand.
by raise and get called at turn, he can be sure you had a Q+ so he manage his river betting size
by betting pot at river, he would get max value knowing that you had Q and hard to fold( in which case you did n't bite the hook anyway)

I would re-raise on turn to avoid tough spot at river like this. Yes you may loose a little more but you are more comfortable at river ,or even similar situation later.

Honestly, it is not a easy fold at river like this, You did the right decision FOR THIS HAND ONLY,

but it is very easy to be wrong, either call and lose or being bluffed away.

作者: pan300at 时间: 2010-6-6 18:38
He played well, and you too.
by cold call on flop you got no information for his hand.
by raise and get called at turn, he can be sure you had a Q+ so he manage his river betting size
by betting pot at river, he would get max value knowing that you had Q and hard to fold( in which case you did n't bite the hook anyway)

I would re-raise on turn to avoid tough spot at river like this. Yes you may loose a little more but you are more comfortable at river ,or even similar situation later.

Honestly, it is not a easy fold at river like this, You did the right decision FOR THIS HAND ONLY,

but it is very easy to be wrong, either call and lose or being bluffed away.

As U said: by raise and get called at turn, he can be sure you had a Q+ so he manage his river betting size.

If he only has Q, he knew people will call with Q and Fold with less than Q for pot size betting. Also I could have AA or K. Plus with my experience AA999 as mentioned before. Of course, I can not 100% sure, But I put him the chance had K or AA larger than 95%.
Also from math calculation, U profit $300 by calling if he had Q. U will lose additional $600 by calling if he had K or AA. So this is not very tough fold.

The most tough fold should be David Chiu folded KK preflop.

作者: David Chiu 时间: 2010-6-6 19:56
Would you checked A's full on the last positon？
A few years back, when I was playing $400-800 Limit Hold'em at the Commerce, I was holding AA on the button, there were three ways action, one of the regular pros from Taiwan“Sam”was in the early position coming with a raise，I made it three bets，the big blind cap with four bets，Same called and of course I did the same。Flop came A 9 3 rainbow，BB checked， Sam bets， I just flat called，turn was a Q，BB checked again，Sam fired once more， I raised，BB made it three bets，Sam fold。（After the hand was over， Sam told me he had AK）。I raised again，river came another Q，he checked。Guess what？I show my AA and checked behind him。He was jumping out of his seat while showing his QQ and was screaming at me：“David， how the hell you check your A's full？”I replied with a smile：“Buddy， you had a tell from New York City to Los Angeles“。
Honestly，I would never able to do that online。

作者: yacaimei 时间: 2010-6-7 03:54
本帖最后由 yacaimei 于 2010-6-7 03:55 编辑

I would check turn to control the pot. My plan is to call both turn and river if he bets. If he check back on the turn, i'll lead out river hope get called by wrose.

My reason to check on turn is it's either way ahead or way behind situation. He most likely have 3 type of hands:
1)Small pocket pair or wrose Q. Not many PP will call all 3 street, so we probably get one more street value from PP at most. Put it on the river makes it most likely get paid off. The risk we take is give him a free card which is fine cuz he only hits 5% of the time.Same reason for Q, only wrose Q is drawing dead.

2)Float. If he's floating on the flop, then check to induce bluff is much better than other options IMO. Betting here fold out all the wrose hands and called by better. If I play very low buyin tournments, i'll call turn and check fold river, cuz less players float, and less players fire more than 1 bullet. I assume this is mid-high stake tournments so players are more agg, so i would more likely to c/c river in that case.

3)Against a K or other monsters. I don't know if betting to get info is a better way to save chips if ha had K. I would rather call both turn and river than call turn and c/f the river.U save a bit chips but I got see the showdown and u had tough decision on river.

C/R on turn IMO is bad.No better hand would fold and no worse will call. Our hand is too good to turn it into bluff.
The highest buyin i played without someone's stacking is 11R, so that's the lvl i'm thinking at.

作者: windstormm 时间: 2010-6-7 07:57
本帖最后由 windstormm 于 2010-6-7 08:03 编辑

It is amazing how much one can improve their game over the time. Looking back on my suggestion 8 month ago when i only played holdem for 3 month, they just looked so stupid. Agree with yacaimei, check call turn, and check/call or check/fold river based on bet size ( i like check call 2 street if he does not go out of line with betting). Check raise turn is the worse play that one can do at this spot. The problem of betting turn is that when you get raised you don't really get much information whether he is making a move or value betting. Call raise and plan to fold river seems very exploitable. There is no reason for me to stop betting even if I just made a move on turn, because it is so obvious that you don't have a K after you call raise and check river.

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